I may have been a bit hard on culture generally. I wasn't condemning it. The image of God is stamped across our world, not just on the programmes of activities at each local church. What I was saying is that instead of copying existing trends - in music, the arts, literature, etc - we could be setting new ones. We could upset the status quo and overturn a few tables in the concert halls and theatres of our world. We could be cultural heretics.

It’s actually heartbreaking to think of all the God-given gifts and talents given to mankind used only to glorify ourselves, our traditions and our cultures (“profaning God’s blessings”) instead of being used to glorify the One from whom all good things come. If we pursued His Kingdom and His righteousness more faithfully, perhaps there would be less “culture” in the world, and more Christ in the world!

There are some great things emerging from this conversation. Keep it coming. I am learning so much from you all. And it's not really about being culturally relevant - in fact, quite the opposite. We are called to be counter-cultural. I am learning to become like that. I used to follow anything the world did, thinking that so long as it wasn't sinful and could be 'christianised', then it was cool. And in a sense, there isn't anything really wrong with that. It's actually part of our mission. There is a place for baptising certain aspects of contemporary culture, so they can be used for the sake of the gospel. But the higher path is to be creatures of invention, as God made us. That means doing something different - being 'culturally heretical'.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Charlie. I’ll admit I can’t speak to using the songs you mentioned in a worship service, because I don’t know the lyrics, nor the overall message the writers were trying to convey! If there are any songs that focus our eyes on the Lord Jesus, the object of our faith and our worship, then by all means let’s use them to His glory!

Rohn, if I’ve offended you, please forgive me. I have to keep in mind that these forums are about topics, not about people. If I share an idea, I have to be willing to be criticized for it! Please don’t take anything I say personally. I am no expert on the church at Corinth. But if I understand the history of that city correctly, for a woman to be in public with her hair uncovered was for her to identify herself as a cult prostitute. Correct me if I’m wrong, please! So, the instructions Paul gave to the believers there, who had formerly been pagans, were meant to remind them to identify themselves with Christ, to whom they had come to belong, instead of identifying themselves with the idols they formerly worshipped. The governing principle is that just as the nation of Israel was called to be separate from the surrounding nations, we as Christians are called to be separate from the world. It’s not about details of fashion, and it’s even less about what is culturally acceptable! To be certain, cultural norms never trump Biblical authority. After all, Paul states that “all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable” twice, first in 1Corinthians chapter 6 and again in chapter 10. And in the chapters between, he gives us practical illustrations on how this governing principle is lived out. For example, “if I cause a weaker brother to stumble by eating meat, then I will abstain from eating meat” (from 1Corinthians chapter 8).

The world is carefully watching us; may we be mindful of our responsibility to point them to Jesus!

This is a very interesting discussion, and may I add another perspective.

My worship experience isn't of big meetings, worship bands and large crowds these days - I've done the Big Top at Skeggie, the Gaity theatre and the Roman bank were the best - loved it for many years.

But if I am honest, I could never transfer that experience to my local church - not many, if any can.

My worship experience these days is more of small groups - I have a faithful gathering of mature folk who want 30/40 minutes of reflective worship to put their day to day experience into a worship perspective.

What I have discovered is that the right blend of worship songs, poetry, bible passage and a reflective solo song, laced with prayer makes what some in my area see as a refreshing change.

The reflective solo song I have often found in secular music - for example: -

Times like These - Foo Fighters,
One Day - The Verve
Coming Back to Life - Pink Floyd
Warning Sign - Coldplay
Forever Young - Bob Dylan
Make you feel my love - Bob Dylan

I've done all these recently - I don't say where they have come from - just do them in front of 15 people, and it works - at least for me.

These songs sit very comfortably alongside reflective worship songs and bring a new insight to a chosen theme.

There are other great songs that can be used to good effect

Crucified man - Graham Kendrick
Filled with compassion - Noel Richards
Why does it have to be so complicated - Dave Bilbrough

As for poetry (or prose - is there a difference?)- you don't have to be clever, and I am not talking rhyming couplets. It just needs some thought, something to say, wrapped in expression. As a non songwriter, (ok I have written one in 30 years) I have found a great way to express gently, biblical truths in a reflective environment that can be helpful to a waiting group of people.

Just some thoughts - thank you for listening

Worship and faith are essentially linked. You can't worship what you really don't believe. The worship experience is whenever people gather and Jesus shows up in power. Since some seem to be the expert on the Corinthian church and have suggested that I am questioning the validity of the Bible's authority I must also assume that in your church women don't teach men or even speak for that matter without having their heads covered at all times and the men don't have long hair. You cannot pick and choose what was a cultural no-no and what is overlooked. What I was saying, quite simply, is that different cultures have different expressions of what is in order and what is not. If you are going to bring something up for the sake of discussion then don't attack someone for having a different view than your own. It's not nice. I respect all views but not at the expence of silencing my own.

Rohn, I’m not sure I follow your reasoning. Are you suggesting that since a woman was healed by Jesus from an issue of blood because she was faithful and men broke through a roof to present their friend to Jesus, the things Paul wrote to the church in Corinth about orderly worship don’t have any authority?

It’s a good thing to rejoice and worship the Lord, no matter what happens to us! As far as miraculous healings, keep in mind that Jesus commanded the leper in Matthew 8:4 "See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." It seems that Jesus wanted the religious leaders to see evidence of His Lordship more than He wanted the crowds to know that a man had been miraculously healed.

Worship is a sacrifice of praise when we offer it in spite of any difficult circumstances we may be experiencing:

Habakkuk3:17
Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, 18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will be joyful in God my Savior. 19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength; he makes my feet like the feet of a deer, he enables me to go on the heights.

The woman who reached out to touch Jesus and the men who lowered their friend through the roof were putting their faith to work; they were blessed as a result. These miracles were one-time events in their lives, most likely, and they pointed them, and point us, to the only One who can deliver from sin and death. I wonder how they continued to worship the Lord day in and day out for the rest of their lives - especially when they faced other trials the Lord in His wisdom may have ordained for them.

His grace is sufficient for us!

Great topic... lots of good productive ideas. I agree with most everyones thoughts on this subject. I think Clive hits it spot on with this point... The problem has been and continues to be a formulated excepted response. We all know that the worship experience is as diverse as the people in the room. Even then it differs acoording to what Holy Ghost wants to do that day. The exuberant part tends to come from "love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, strength etc.". Also if you look at the scripture where Jesus said " my house shall be called a house of prayer", the correct definition of "house of prayer" is "joyful house of praise." (look at it). There are times when the presence of God comes in so heavy I have literally been unable to move much less speak. It all goes back to this... "there are no formulas" If you are looking for precedent, it's easy to found though. Not everyone who saw Jesus responded joyfully and exuberantly, but everyone Jesus touched went jumping and leaping and praising God.Our responses to God's presence is situational. I have noticed however that those forgiven much have a tendency to praise the loudest. We also have to be careful not to judge according to our own paradigm of what the word "order" means. Order in one system can mean chaos in another. It wasn't very "in order" to break apart a roof top a lower a sick man interupting Jesus' teaching. Sometimes desperate people do desperate things.Faith can be messy. I think Jesus likes that. Ask the woman with the issue of blood.

Good points, Starlene and Clive. 1Samuel 16:7 - "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." Yet we do have Scripture and the Holy Spirit within us, who enables us to "...stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." (John 7:24) If we measure all things, including our own personal motives, in the light of Scripture, does that make us judgmental, or discerning?

Of course, we're commanded to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind", and to "Love your neighbor as yourself." If I feel like dancing, or raising my hands, or clapping, etc. while I worship, I have the freedom in Christ to do so! But if begin to make a spectacle of myself by "speaking in tongues" without interpreting, or running around frantically, or speaking out of turn, I'm not obeying the commands of Scripture, nor am I loving my unsaved neighbor who may be very much in need of finding solid ground on which to stand, and, upon seeing such disorder, decides to look away from Jesus and miss the answers only He will provide.

Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing - cf. John 15:5. Therefore, our worship needs to be Christ-centered, and it needs to be "in spirit and in truth" - cf. John 4:24. God's word is truth, and it sanctifies us - cf. John 17:17. It seems that if we don't start there, nothing we offer to the Lord is true worship, no matter what it looks like to us.

The next time I find myself striving in my own strength to create a "worshipful experience" for the congregation, I'll try to keep in mind that Jesus is always with us. WOW!

"...they will call him Immanuel - which means, 'God with us.'"
Matthew 1:23

There are some key phrases in what you say, Starlene - 'creating an atmosphere' and 'create a place'. Throughout church history, those have been the aims of the worship facilitator, whether that was in designing the 'Book Of Kells', writing 'Amazing Grace' or shifting rocks to build a monastery. To make a space for God and people to meet is one of the greatest things we can do. Let's leave behind the images and expectations that various people movements have put upon us - and just make that space.

For me, leading worship is about creating an atmosphere that people feel comfortable expressing their worship in their individual way. As I get older (I have a teenage child to prove it!), I definitely notice that young people have WAY more energy than I and usually love to worship at "warp speed." However, when I look out over our congregation and see some dancing, some standing with hands raised, or seated with tears of love on their cheeks, I feel like that is a healthy environment for worship. If we as worship leaders feel like we have to produce a certain response in the people to feel like we lead them some where, then we should probably re-evaluate our focus and motives. But neither do I feel like I have the right to "judge" someones worship based on what they do or do not do. Which brings me back to my first comment - create a place where God and His people can meet corporately. After that, it is up to the individual how they respond. Blessings on the journey!

Now we're getting somewhere. It would be interesting to find out how and why the concept of 'ecstatic worship' was introduced. I remember someone telling me that at the height of the 'Jesus Movement' in the 70s, either 'Time' or 'Newsweek' magazine carried a photo of an attractive young woman, eyes closed, arms lifted up in worship - and it was an iconic moment for charismatic Christianity. The archetype had been established. Beautiful young people were being baptised in water and in the Spirit. They had been delivered from drugs and the occult. It was intoxicating imagery, like an updated Arthurian romance - this time with Jesus and surf. All we had to do was follow. Remember popular culture had just emerged from the psychedelic era, when rock bands tried to get their audiences into a trance-like state. It was electronic shamanism. Images like the girl caught up in praise, tend to stamp movements with a certain 'look'. That same stance is still depicted today on worship album covers. Have we merely carried on a 'brand' and a 'look' - and mistaken it for pursuing a spiritual quest?

My thoughts on the charismatic movement may be upsetting to some, but let me share them for the sake of discussion. I struggle to find a New Testament precedent for ecstatic worship. Instead, I think of what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in 1Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14. For example, I’ve never heard a person boast of the gift of interpretation of tongues (1Corinthians 12:30), yet we are commanded to pray for interpretation of tongues (1Corinthians 14:13) if we speak in tongues. As far as worship goes, we’re commanded to do so in an orderly and thoughtful fashion, for the edification of the church, and for the sake of the lost who may witness our corporate worship. (1Corinhtians 14:6-33) Paul even offers an illustration of musical instruments (yeah!) being skillfully played for the sake of those who listen. (1Corinhtians 14:7-8)

I know that "tongues" are just one aspect of the charismatic movement. The Day of Pentecost seems, to me, though, to illustrate the primary purpose of the gift of tongues – to make the Gospel known to all nations.

The ultimate goal of God’s ministry of reconciliation to us through the Lord Jesus is not for us to receive Spiritual gifts, though that does happen; rather, Spiritual gifts enable us to join in the work of God’s ministry of reconciliation to others through the Lord Jesus.

“Heavenly Father, may the gifts you pour out on us be returned to you with an increase, in Jesus’ name!”

Thanks for your perspective, Phil and Hev. Could we be mistaking a lot of movement in the old adrenalin and endorphin department, for movement in the heavenlies? I find myself standing back and analysing my own journey through charismatic worship, and wondering what is actually happening when we get stuck into high-energy, emotionally-charged singing and dancing? For I have been just as deeply moved (maybe more) chanting the psalms with a bunch of monks on a remote island. But there was no frenetic build-up to that point. It's not that my natural taste would lean towards classical/choral - probably quite the opposite. I was a punk! But when it comes to corporate praise, somehow I find myself wanting more than just a good old knees-up.

Is it just me, or is 'ecstatic worship' becoming a bit...tiring? Maybe I need to eat more super-foods and protein-packed meals. I really would like to get back to running around the hall screaming like a falsetto gorilla. But part of me also wonders if there might be another way of structuring the worship experience - so that it's more of a journey of discovery, than a mad sprint? What do people think? Is it OK to be chilled rather than thrilled?