Isn't Escapology what Houdini is famous for? Or have I just got my wires crossed?

FIrst of all the word 'rapture' does NOT appear in scriptures. I always warn students of the word not
to make a doctrine in a case like this. a lot is speculation here. The "pre-trib rapture" doctrine was unheard of before the mid 1800's, and it is the weakest of the end time theories. Preachers that promote this point of view usually do not have a grasp on the call and mission of the church.
Let's remember, we don't have to 'escape out of here before the devil gets us' we WILL get the job done, the gates of Hell will NOT prevail against the church.

Steve Breithaupt

Let us also remember that a great deal of what is written speaks into the nature and character of God and of Christ and has immense value for that alone!

To follow on from Clive's musical analogy of the fiddle, we can see the music, the notes and the stave but it is the character, the passion and the presence that inhabits the music and helps it to transcend the mechanical or the ritual.

absolutely. come to think of it, i only listed the artistic people who were involved with the formation of scripture. there were also philosophers, theologians, priests, political leaders and fishermen. not all of those would've been literal thinkers, either. it's quite a challenge to embrace it all. it's like learning to play the fiddle. it's a lifetime's craft.

You guys are right. Even the Apostle Paul himself acknowledges in Romans chapter 14 that yes, some matters are 'disputable'.

The bible is the complete word of God, but while many principles are spelled out plainly, not everything is that obvious - and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Come to think of it, if everything was that obvious then I wouldn't have a good enough motivation to study the scriptures daily.

Simeon, if we just take a literal approach and interpret things on face value we get into all sorts of trouble. For instance, in 1Cor 14 Paul says women must be silent in church, a couple of chapters earlier he tells them how they should pray in church, which is it? You can't have both. It is only when you do your homework you can figure out what he really means.

Some things are meant to be taken literally, some are not, how do you decide? I would suggest by using the methods that all scholars would agree on; placing the statements within their cultural setting, examing the nuances of the language and placing them with the meta narrative.

Anything else is just plain bonkers!

I think Clive is right, you can't deal with poetry [Psalms, Song of Solomon] the same as you would deal with Paul's letters. One is an artist, one a theologian. They don't write the same way or have the same objectives.

The problem with plain sense is that it doesn't seem to be that plain for most people!

that would be all fine and dandy, simeon, if all the societies who engaged with the story of scripture down through the ages were literal thinkers. but they weren't. the ancient hebrews were poets, musicians, artists and storytellers. even king david played the harp.

when i realised that, i started to look at scripture with a fresh appreciation of what was being shared with us, in future civilisations. it's a subtle shift in thinking, but it changes things radically. it doesn't make it any less 'true', in fact, it brings out the wonder of the bible even more.

Presumably you all believe in a literal second coming? If so, I can't quite fathom your incredulity at the idea of taking anything else literally. I don't see why a basically literal approach to the Bible (which also considers context) should be viewed as being intellectually inferior or dishonest. When the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, no other sense need be sought! Maybe I'm too simple, although I did go to university and I do have an arts degree...

thanks dave. i have had a long journey to get to this point. i used to believe my worshipping community had the right interpretation on things. i thought that was how christianity worked. you assign yourself to the most acceptable option (in your view).

now i try to put myself in places where i really won't entirely agree with my brothers and sisters from the wider body of christ. yet our different traditions bring certain treasures to the table which we would lack in our home settings. and i am the richer for it.

we should all remember scripture is 'God-breathed'. that is a whole other thing than being dictated. as a result, i believe the study and teaching of the sacred text is a real art-form in itself. it means looking at the context and, led by mind, heart and Spirit, applying it to our souls today.

Well said Clive. Culture, historical context and genre are the three principal lenses we should use to determine the eternal purposes of the content. Without those lenses we too easily end up with fairy tale christianity that ultimately leaves us powerless.

I do believe entirely that the scriptures are the inspired word of God, I believe just as strongly that we need them properly interpreting into our post-modern context.

let's step back from our bibles a little. re-imagine the scriptures as a library of letters, poems, historical documents and other works. they all come under the broad theme of God's relationship with his creatures. and they were written a very long time ago, for a particular audience within a specific time and space and cultural setting.

suddenly, we make certain passages - even entire sections - have pointed, literal meaning for our times. and they tend to be the most poetic and symbolic parts, too. what gives us licence to do that? for in doing so, we have no respect or regard for the original writer and what they initially intended, under God's guidance. therefore we may well miss the message they were carrying in the spirit.

I suspect that the specific details of Revelation will be of more interest and relevance to those who actually experience the Tribulation than to us now. The times I believe will be literal, and were given as a reassurance that those dark days will not last forever. "Newspaper exegesis" should certainly be avoided, but I don't think that we should ignore the prophetic passages altogether. If taught in a balanced way, eschatology should engender the joyous faith that Noel speaks about. I also agree that the "prosperity gospel" has raised many false expectations amongst Christians.

yep. i spent so much of my life praying against pain and suffering, then discovered in ecclesiastes that maybe God ordains it – 'when times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other'. you won't hear that from the popular pulpits.

Amen to that, Noel.

Good point. Yes, bad things are happening to most Christians in our world today. We must never forget that Jesus promised trouble but that he encouraged us to be of good cheer because He has overcome the world.

I think the big problem is that the Western church is a long way from proclaiming a Biblical Gospel. It proclaims one of success and material blessing and gain. Preachers lie that God will increase your $$100 offering by 100%. If that were the case the church would be awash with millionaires by now!

Suffering is part of our Christian walk. "Take up your cross and follow me" is a long way from God wants to give you a new Lexus.

I am off the point here - sorry. But we must encourage a much broader, theologically informed faith.

The "Don't worry, nothing bad will happen to you if you are a Christian" sits very uneasily when I think of the Christians in Indonesia and China who are beaten to death for their faith.

I agree. A lot of "end times" stuff owes more to escapology than eschatology

I have to say that I find myself turned off by the doom-mongers who talk about the rapture/end times in graphic details. These end days could last another ten thousand years for all I know and care! In the past they have said that credit cards are the mark of the beast and that the European Union is some 12 headed anti-Christ. That there is some global conspiracy to persecute the church. Previous winners of anti-Christs of the Year, have been - Hitler (1933 - 1945), Stalin (1945 - 1956), Mao Tse Tung (1957 - 1964), Pol Pot (1964 - 1974), Idi Amin (1974-1983). Since then, there have been numerous contenders. Among this year's nominations are - The Nutter in Iran, Barack Obama, The Korean one, etc etc.

It does not create a joyous faith that anticipates the glorious return of Christ but a fear-driven, everyone is out to get me lifestyle.

These preachers who prey on peoples' imaginations and purvey speculative rubbish, should be exposed for the charlatans that they are.....

Some of our Sages taught that creation has a life-expectancy of 7,000 years:
For us is followers of Yeshua it could be re-interpreted as:
From Adam to Abraham - 2,000 years
From Abraham to Yeshua - 2,000 years
From Yeshua to His return - 2,000 years
Millennium - 1,000 years

This is really simplistic, but it works for some.
I just don't think we know, but we are told to earnestly await His return, so that implies. . . . . .

maybe because God is an artist? and artists like to spend time on their work. so whether he took seven thousand or seven million years - or more - is entirely up to him. he has the luxury, and the pain, of being God.

"To everything there is a season; a time for every purpose under heaven (Ecclesiastes 3 v 1). "..in the fullness of time, God sent forth His Son" (Galatians 4 v 4).

Christ's second advent will be like His first - in the fullness of time - when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. God has a plan and a schedule to keep. He has appointed times and seasons. At Passover, Christ died and on the Feast of Fruitfruits, He rose from the dead. God's timing was perfect and He fulfilled the feasts in every detail. These festivals were set times, when God's people were to appear before Him at the Temple in Jerusalem. It is perhaps not surprising, therefore, that it was at these times that God chose to do some of His most amazing works. God always keeps His appointments!

I used to think 2,000 years was a long time to wait for God's next "big thing." I am now convinced that He has a definite schedule. The return of Christ will not be subject to a divine whim. God is "watching over His Word to perform it," as He said to Jeremiah. 2 Peter 3 v 8 says, "..with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." I've read somewhere that the Jewish sages believed that the creation week points to a 7,000 year redemption story; the sabbath being a foreshadowing of the millennium. Why did God take 6 days to create the world? He could have done it in 2 seconds. I'd like to say more, but the microwave just pinged...

i'm very sceptical about that one, and i wonder what that saying really means. yes, agree with the prayer, 'come back soon, lord' - but can we really adjust the cosmic schedule? i would rather leave that to the almighty.

Can we hasten the day of the Lord?

yes, the early church was convinced Christ was coming back soon – and wanted to make it even sooner. there was an urgency about their message, yet a deep reflective side to their mission. wouldn't it be great to recapture something of that? a kind of critical contemplation!

I wonder why God has waited 2,000 years to wrap everything up. It would have saved a lot of suffering, not least the 50 million who died during the last world war.

That is the mystery of God. Yet another aspect of Him that I cannot fathom.

I guess one day, all will be revealed, but not on this side of eternity.

we all have our special study interests. mine would be the church in early medieval times. there is evidence to show jesus' imminent return was a feature in their thinking, too. they thought if they took the gospel to the last people on earth, that would quicken the escaton. i would suggest that mindset has become a key component of other radical missionary movements since then. while i may not agree with that approach - that we can redraft God's timetable by persuading more people to become members of the global church - one has to admit it has produced some fiery evangelists.

Isn't it all too easy to focus on the things of the future and the things that actually have very few finite answers rather than to look at the mistakes that we are making and the changes that we need to make in the here and now? Isn't that in fact a classic human tendancy?

What is more important? What will happen when Jesus returns or that our houses are in order when He does?

I too like Noel's approach to this. I don't mind admitting that I do not fully understand the rapture and I can tell you this, at my age and being the size I am I find myself being more concerned about a rupture than a rapture :)

I remember many years ago, my old friend Peter Fenwick being asked by a rather enthusiastic youth whether he was pre or post trib. Peter answered "I'm pan-trib", the young man, having never heard of this, asked what it meant, Peter's response; "trust in God and it will all pan out in the end!"

It seems to me that eschatology can be much more of a distraction than a help. Most pentecostal scholars [as oposed to popular writers] would not see the Thess. passage as the rapture these days. Many scholars are also taking a "realised" view, that is to say, for instance, that most things talked about in Revelation have already happened.

Clearly the NT Christians had a real expectation of the imminent return of Jesus and it deeply effected their missiology, I think Noel hit the nail on the head earlier, without dismissing the scriptures or anybodies view, "live like He's coming back tomorrow, but plan like He isn't!"

Trust God and it will all pan out in the end. Promise!

One of the most helpful books I've read on this theme was written by my ex-boss, as it happens. "I Believe in Heaven on Earth" by Tony & Patricia Higton. They point out that there are 3 major ideas on this, and all of them have strenghts and weaknesses.
Personally, I have often said that I refuse to be dogmatic about that which has yet to happen

Simeon, that'a a great point about Israel. That's a great point. I think a great part of what the church is supposed to do in these last days has to do with realizing the importance of Israel in God's plan. Hopefully we can do better than some of the earlier Christians who tried to deny it.

I'm more of a pre-trib persuasion, however, I am trying to open my mind up to the other possibilities, because I don't want to be closed minded. All the same, the main theme in the book of Revelation is Jesus!

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

So much for the argument that the rapture was a 19th century invention! But should we be relying on the "Church Fathers" to prove our point? Many of them were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, which in turn influenced their approach to biblical interpretation. Augustine et al spiritualised Old Testament prophecies, applying them to the Church. They preached against the Jews and denied Israel's place in the plan of God. Some of their writing is nothing less than anti-semitism and a blot on the history of the Church. A-millenialism cuts Israel's national restoration out of the picture, but without Israel, few of the end time prophecies (which form a considerable portion of the Bible) make any sense at all.

I think that some of the comments on this board are caricaturing pre-trib theology a bit. Let's not dismiss those who take the prophetic Scriptures seriously as being of "no earthly use." ALL Scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine, etc. We should indeed hold the "now" and "not yet" in tension. I believe in our rapture into heaven, but it will not be a permanent fixture, for "the tabernacle of God is with men." The New Jerusalem is earthbound! As in all teaching, Christ should be at the centre. Eschatology must include an exhortation to holiness and godliness in this age, as we "look for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ." (Titus 2 v 13.)

"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." (1 John 3 v 2-3.)

Rapture? In the twinkling of an eye I have already been seated together with Christ in heavenly places. Woosh! What a trip.

It's time we were awakened to the realities of God's Kingdom in which we are invited to live to the full...now. His Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. Once we are able to embrace all that this implies, maybe we will become so "enrapt" that we'll forget about our eschatological fantasies. Muzings about the future pales into insignificance when we are captivated by the abundance of life in which God wants us partake.

This isn't so much a potshot at the astute theological appraisals of my brothers and sisters; rather it is a desparate hope that we all find the fullness in Jesus that He means for us to have...to be the leaves of God's riverside trees meant for the healing of the nations; to share with Jesus in wiping away the tears from the eyes of the oppressed; to allow the lamb to lay down with the wolf. This is what we can engage in if we will accept it and learn to live in the "faith of God."

Big hugs.

Rohn, I’m prayerfully considering your comments on my method of engaging in these forums. “Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another” (Proverbs 27:17). My intentions are to challenge and question, and to honor God’s word, above all else. If, by attempting to “take every thought captive to obey Christ” (2Corinthians10:5b), I come across as one who has an argumentative spirit, I apologize, and I ask for your forgiveness.

Has anyone considered that, just as the Israelites in Egypt were not harmed by any of the plagues, those who are in Christ (protected by His blood, paralleling and fulfilling the Passover), will not be harmed by the plagues in Revelation? Certainly, there have been, are, and will be Christians “slain for the word of God and for the witness they bear” (Revelation 6:9). The plagues of Exodus and Revelation condemn unrepentant sinners to perish in their sins (eternal death). The blood of the Passover lamb protected from physical death those who obeyed God’s commands; the blood of the Lamb of God protects from eternal death those who obey God’s commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus – eternal death seems to be the greater harm.

Both Daniel 7:21 and Revelation 13:21 have the beast being allowed to make war on the saints, and to conquer them. Those verses don’t make sense if the church is “raptured”, in the sense that 1Thessalonians4:16-17 is popularly interpreted.

If anyone is interested in learning how some Christians have been and are involved in scientific efforts, visit www.answersingenesis.org. This ministry is focused on interpreting all things in light of God’s unchanging authoritative word, instead of through mankind’s ever-changing ideas.

Weren’t most western universities through the centuries founded on Christian principles?

One other question – what verse in Scripture led people to think that the earth was flat?

Well, we need Christians in the worlds of the arts and sciences, because the cutting-edge research that is underway right now, needs a balanced biblical voice.

We need thoughtful Christians on the ethics committees of universities, who can offer a high view of human nature.

This is part of our spiritual act of worship.

Thanks Clive.....that is encouraging. Since I wrote, I was thinking about all the things that people challenged throughout history, that enable us to be doing what we do today - 'the earth is flat' . 'the sun goes around the earth' etc. There is something within our God given human nature that questions and asks 'why not?'

There is a spirit of the pioneer and the risk taker among our brothers and sisters who live in America. I think it is because there was a generation of risk takers who sailed the oceans in search of a better, freer world.

Psalm 139 v 8 says that 'If I go up to the heavens, You are there'. How prophetic is that for a generation of interplanetary travellers!!

So, yes, my prayer is that we continually look 'heavenwards' for the day of Christ's coming but also look 'heavenwards' for the wisdom and inspiration to continue to see this world become a better place for all who live here now and for the generations yet unborn......

The last couple of paragraphs of your contribution are the most challenging right now, Noel.

I read this week about scientists perfecting a bionic hand that attaches to the body with electrodes – no surgery needed – and works in response to impulses from the wearer. That is just one example of what science is doing with God's creation.

So we need to get on with engaging with these issues that are facing us now – never mind the future – and offer people the Christian hope for today. The future is here.

A leading bishop was asked at a Christian conference, 'What difference does Jesus make to your life?' And the bishop responded, 'He gives me a reason to get up in the morning'. Christ makes our day. Let's go and make someone else's day, in his strength.

I have been reading the different contributions with interest. I realise it is easy to drift into looking at other aspects of our theology, which affect our view of what God through the Holy Spirit might be doing.

I have just been skimming over an article on the web, from the Christian Resource Institute that says this:

"There is no rapture in the book of Revelation. The church not taken out of the world and the earth destroyed. Instead, God comes down to dwell on earth. The church is in the world. This is a new heaven and a new earth because the older separation between heaven as the dwelling place of God and the earth as the dwelling place of human beings is transcended by God’s redemptive work in history. Now the earth becomes the dwelling place of God. There is no need for temple because God’s presence is no longer localized in a place but is pervasive (v. 22). There is no need for sun or moon because the glory of God is everywhere. Nations and kings continue to exist in the world, but now they conduct their work in the light of God’s glory (vv. 23-24). The gates of the city will never be shut because there is no longer any enmity or threat (v. 25).

I must confess that this picture of the end is much more appealing and hopeful than rapture theology can ever be. Rapture does not fit with the spirit of the Bible. The picture I get from the Bible is that God in the end will bring his kingdom fully and completely to earth. Affirming a fervent hope that some day Christ will return and the kingdom of God will be fully realized in the world ought to energize God’s people to work toward that end, or as 2 Peter puts it,

"What sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God… Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation" (3:11-15).

When writers and preachers make such a big fuss about the Second Coming and the end of the world, they are forgetting something much more important. They are in effect minimizing the First Coming. In a real sense the world ended some two thousand years ago in Jesus. Something decisive happened for humanity and for our relationship with God in the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The New Testament is much more concerned with what it means to be crucified with Christ than with being glorified when he comes again." (End of quote from article)

To read the whole page visit: http://www.worshipjournal.com/forum_50.html

The last thing I want is for this Forum to cause huge arguments. I guess there will never be total agreement on such a subject. I think back to my own experiences as a youth. Hearing all sorts of different interpretations of Revelation and what might happen. I was really bummed to think that I would have to wait 1,000 years before God wrapped everything up for good!!

I wonder if deep down, the longing for a rapture theology of Christ returning in our/my lifetime is because we have a secret fear of death, separation from those we love (however temporary) etc. The idea that Christ might return sometime in the next few years is very appealing because it means that me, my family, friends, will not be separated by the curtain of death. We will all board 'the train to Glory' together, on a fantastic day trip to the Heavenly realms.

Is it a harder option to face up to the fact that this planet might continue to function for another few thousand years, with all the amazing technological advances that will take place. How will future Chritians interpret scripture/Revelation if/when there are colonies of humans populating the Moon or other distant planets? How does the scriptural concept of a new heaven and a new earth get interpreted if someone is leading an Evangelical church on Mars???!!

If this sounds like I am getting out of hand and way off track, imagine what the church leaders of a few hundred years ago would have thought, if they knew all the scientific advances that would take place in the centuries to come.

There seemed to be a fear that scientific advance would destroy/diminish the power that the Church held over ordinary people. But those scientific advances have led to a much better life for us and future generations - along with all the subsequent negatives ( wheat and tares principles at work).

Maybe the challenge for us is to ensure we pass on the wonderful knowledge of our Creator and his ways to this and future generations.

To live as if He might return tomorrow but to prepare in case He does not.

To faithfully serve our God in this generation.........

Anthony....What would be a modern day sign and a wonder is if you didn't argue with, and discretely put-down what I write... You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand what I was saying or have said in the past. OBVIOUSLY I wasn't referring to the miracle of salvation but the resurfacing of tongues, healings, creative miracles, etc. But you probably already knew that.

Did anyone else not understand what I was saying? I know that there are differences of belief here but was I being that vague?

I enjoy these forums enormously even when there are different and opposing opinions than mine... I have been enlightened in so many areas and hope that I can offer a different cultural point of view also... but respectfully. It is not your opinions that are annoying because everyones opinion deserves respect, its your demeanor... at least toward me.

I had already pre-determined months ago to ignore any of your responses (and I am not alone) but you do have legitimate opinions that bring a different perspective. But you are blowing it by your obvious subtle attacks. And don't bother with the "your obviously are offended" or "thats what these forums are for" response. I am going out on a limb bringing this up but I think we can still salvage engaging, respectful and oposing dialog without the desent. Its up to you at this point. If this is too much for a forum then I will respectfully withdraw in the future.

I’m not convinced that the Holy Spirit’s work in the world (cf. John 16:5-11) has changed since the Day of Pentecost. Actually, the Holy Spirit’s work in Creation has always been miraculous – ever since “the earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the deep.” (Genesis 1:2) And as miraculous as the birth of a child is, it fades in comparison to the new birth of a repentant sinner (cf. John 3:1-15, Luke 15:8-10). (What choice did we have in being physically born? By what human ability is a lost sinner forgiven and delivered from death?) So, isn’t the greatest miracle in the world that of the new birth and the subsequent sanctification of the child of God, all brought about by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit and the Word?

The “last days” began at the Day of Pentecost with the Holy Spirit’s indwelling of believers (cf. John 16:5-15, Hebrews 1:2-4). I realize that Joel’s prophecy, quoted by Peter in Acts chapter 2, speaks of dreams and visions and other various signs and wonders in creation that are to occur in the “last days”, but to say that the Holy Spirit has not been at “miraculous work” until 100 years ago is confusing to me. Anyway, we’re off track – perhaps the work of the Holy Spirit could be a good topic for another forum.

Since the idea of “rapture” implies a physical resurrection, and if this sounds like a good place to start to anyone, would a good question to begin the discussion be, “Why does the Bible even speak resurrection?”

I,like Noel, was raised in a traditional pentecostal church. Actually my father has pastored in a pentecostal denomination for over fifty years. In other words... it was a common occurance to have the hell scared of you with a well timed rapture message.

Although I also have many solid doubts about the current rapture theology, it is rather hard to ignore scriptures like 1 Thess. 4:16,17, just to name a few. I understand and agree that we should question generally excepted sacred cows, however, just because it wasn't introduced until 1830 doesn't automatic mean an abscence of validity. Until Martin Luther came along... our direct communication with God through grace was not an accepted idea either. Not to mention the abscence of miraculous acts of the Holy Spirit practically non exsistant until little over a hundred years ago.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't question eschatolgy. I just think that we need a better reason other than symantics or our dislike of the American entertainment marketing of it.

As it turns out, we’re having an adult after-service Bible class on the book of Revelation. We most recently discussed John’s vision in chapter 4, after we had 3 or 4 sessions on the first 3 chapters. Despite the blessings John pronounces on those who read aloud the words of Revelation and on those who hear and keep them (chapter 1, verse 3), within a group of only ~20 people there is disagreement on the details of interpreting events that have yet to take place. Actually, there’s even disagreement as to what events have already taken place and what events haven’t. I think one of the blessings will be learning how to prayerfully and patiently bear with one another!

Of course, the verse that most readers would point to as support of the idea of “rapture” is in 1Thessalonians chapter 4. If this were the only place in Scripture that the resurrection of believers is mentioned, I could understand how the idea would develop. (I’d expect it to develop faster than in 1,830 years, though!) But we know that there’s considerable more description of the resurrection given to us than that. Perhaps we could begin by looking at what the Bible has to say about resurrection? Fish enjoy worms, you know, and the work of the Great Commission has been compared to fishing…

This is a great subject! I was a product of the 'Thief In The Night'-style theology of the 70s. Young people like myself were frightened out of their wits into committing themselves wholeheartedly to God, in case 'the Rapture' whisked away all their church mates, leaving them behind. Dark times.

It does seem that various radical missionary movements throughout church history have been compelled by a 'who-dares-wins' view of the end times. The usual reasoning has been, 'if we evangelise the last remaining unreached people groups, we will quicken the end'.

It doesn't seem a bad thing to expect Jesus' return, particularly if that helps us to live better lives and to pursue mission - so long as we conduct ourselves properly and with good intentions. But it can almost be a panic-driven affair. Over the years, I have learned the best way to do everything is out of love, not because we might not get our ticket stamped for the midnight train to Zion.

Noel
Hi. This is a topic thats quite relevant in how we respond to the circumstances around us. Stephen Mansfield spoke at Mission:Worship about how easy it is to want conferences on the End Times and how to be prosperous at this time rather than face the issues of life that are surrounding us and therefore use it as a means of escape. I was surprised to hear that the doctrine of the Rapture only came about in 1830 - lots of other iffy stuff around at the time too!
Its my understanding that God desires all things to be brought together under one head - that speaks of unity,relationship, reconciliation, salvation, rescue, worship and all these things are possible because in His love for us , He sent Jesus to make it possible for that desire to be met. For some, it won't happen because they won't want to submit to the head that has been chosen and in His love he wont force it upon us but as long as we are aware that the place away from Him will be very different...

Noel, I think this is an important topic to discuss. What if my interpretation of what God has revealed in the Bible of His plan for His Creation is incorrect? Events would unfold differently than I expect - as a result I could become greatly distressed! Even worse, in my distress, my witness for the Gospel could become ineffective.

Whenever I hear phrases describing heaven as a final destination, I too am reminded of the new heavens and the new earth John describes in Revelation. Peter also describes a new heaven and a new earth as the home of righteousness (2 Peter 3:13). After all, God's Creation was good (until sin and death entered through Adam) and we were created to live as inhabitants of the earth, not of heaven. Adam was placed in the Garden, where he fellowshipped with the Lord - until Adam disobeyed and was cast out. God will again make His dwelling place with men – sinful men surely can't make their dwelling place with God - in the new heavens and new earth to be established at end of the age. Until that happens, He is redeeming and sanctifying lost sinners from death (separation from God) to life (eternal fellowship with God) through the power of the cross of Christ.

Perhaps if my eschatology causes me to habitually speculate on how major "newsworthy" world events fit the glimpses of the future we're given in Scripture, instead of motivating me to fulfill the Great Commission, then I might want to re-examine my interpretation of God's Word.

Claas. I found an article written by Ernest L Martin in 1976. This is the link: http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

Also my good friend Martin Scott is doing a teaching series on this which you can listen to as a podcast on: http://3generations.eu/

Hope you find those helpful

hm.... thats a tough one, noel.... i will have to do some reading on it!!
.
what is your source on the 1830 thing?

cheers

I believe that our hymnology should certainly embrace the subject of our future hope. The hope of a bodily resurrection and an eternal life spent with our Lord.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church, where there was always a strong teaching on the Rapture and belief that one day Christ would come back and we would disappear from this earth, leaving the Godless heathens to the mercy of the Anti-Christ (whoever, he, she or it would be). Some thought we would be singing worship songs in Heaven while great trouble and tribulation was being encountered by those Left Behind. (Does the Bible actually say that we are going to Heaven? Or will God making His dwelling place with us on a new earth?)

This teaching gave rise to a whole bunch of books on the subject which maybe should be consigned to the 'Fiction/Fantasy' sections of bookstores.

The teaching on the Rapture only emerged in 1830. To quote an article I read: "It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D.".

Perhaps we could look at what Eschatology is truly all about and what really is our future hope.

I guess I am opening up a can of worms here but since it is such an important topic, maybe we should get some Biblical insight from you all. We do not want to spend our time waiting for something that is not going to happen........

Or write hymns about the subject that have no theological foundation.