When we reflect on God's word, and come across a verse that as we think on it, a certain person comes to mind, that has that quality, or is working on that quality, or we can see with that quality, and we speak or write that, that becomes a prophecy. does not have to be scholasticized, or quoted with all the references in the margin. It is much more powerful when it is shared in a natural conversation. It also works the other way. We will be praying for a person when a verse comes to mind, rather than preaching at the friend or lecturing the friend, we see through the heart of God a future where that verse is part of our friends life. When we speak that, it becomes prophecy.

Expressing God's heart is timeless. That's contemporary prophecy.

The 'extra' biblical sources - ie church tradition and history - help us to see how other people have interpreted scripture and outworked the truths they have found.

So, if we don't see a precedent for a certain activity in church tradition, then we have grounds to question it. There are mentions of some strange practices in scripture, which we don't follow up as being 'biblical' - such as reference to baptism on behalf of the dead. That's mentioned in the New Testament. So why don't we do it? Well, for one thing, it's not an established practice in mainstream church tradition - that's a reasonable explanation.

But having said all that, prophecy is found across the traditions, so far as I know, so it's right that the apostle Paul wishes that we all would prophesy. In a sense, we are 'all' doing it - it's happening across the traditions - but more 'ordinary' church members need to enter into that experience.

Well, of course, that is the ideal we all aim for, whatever tradition we come from. But in reality, each one of us comes from, or is influenced by, a particular church tradition and denominational background. So to say that we only use the Word - not our traditions - as our 'guidebook' is a nice thought. I doubt if few of us actually achieve that state of detached perfection. And if you do reach it, you've probably started yet another church movement!

Good! It's not the "either or" school, where good people fight to the death, and they are both right! It is the body of Christ school, where no believer calls another believer "fool", but listens to the other with the coaching of the Holy Spirit whispering in our ear, using only the Word, and not our traditions as our guidebook.

Nice discussion! A general, basic thought - should prophecy be considered a discipline, more than just a “word from the Lord”? In ancient Israel, there were schools of prophets. See, for example, the prophets under Elisha’s direction. On the other hand, Paul has prophecy listed as a gift, something that we simply receive. I suppose that we’ve all been taught, and rightfully so, to work with others to develop the gifts we’re given. Jesus’ challenging parable of the talents comes to mind.

1Peter 4:10
"As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace..."

I like Clive's logic. May I suggest we take it ome step further. Rather than emphasizing the gifted, or the gift, why not allow our hearts to reach for The Giver of gifts, and the Maker of the gifted?
I was so childish for much of my life! My only redemption was that God saw my child-like faith , and used it to draw me into His arms!

Amen! ooops! I meant to say sweeeeeet!

On further reflection, we are probably on safe ground to downplay prophecy, and just let it speak for itself. So do your crosswords, put on your make-up and look after your children, and in middle of your day-to-day 'stuff', just allow God to use you. If we take the spotlight off prophecy, it may emerge more naturally, anyway. Perhaps there's been too much talk like, 'Prophet Jones will share the word of God next week', therefore highlighting the gifted rather than the gift. Or something like that...?

I wonder if the prophet checked the crossword results more readily than he did the fruit of his prophetic input! Maybe there are testimonies to prove those words were from heaven and true?

We can throw a newspaper away in a flash but the effect our words have on another persons life continue for a long time.

I've been wondering what I would have done if I'd seen the crossword incident. I suppose we do these types of things all the time really, like when a woman reaches down to her children or turns to use her lip gloss again before she sings another line?

Sue

OK. I see where this is heading. I have likes and dislikes about this story. Yes, we are to be 'naturally supernatural'. But doing a crossword in the company of friends? I was brought up to see that as being downright rude. Or am I being old-fashioned? Some prophets, it seems, need to go to charm school. However, I completely agree that we do not work ourselves up into a frenzy in a bid to prophesy. But I would suggest doing crosswords in private, or with a consenting adult friend.

Clive, I was at a "Leader's Conference" more than 25 years ago and we had a session where those with a prophetic gifting were released to prophesy over individuals. I was on the worship team and we were providing 'background music' to this activity.

I remember being quite surprised that one of the 'prophets' there was sitting doing a newspaper crossword amidst all the activity and noise.

Occasionally he would put his newspaper down, go over to someone and prophesy, before resuming his crossword! It actually taught me:
1 God wants us to be naturally supernatural in what we do.
2 God can break into our everyday activity if we are listening.
3 We do not have to work ourselves into a spiritual nirvana/frenzy in order to prophesy.
4 We can be 'in the Spirit' even though we are engaged in an activity as mundane as a crossword.

How about the mechanics of prophecy?
What does scripture say about the methods God uses to communicate with the prophet?
Have we come across any ways which are not mentioned in scripture?

Some people with prophetic gifting can become very otherworldly and detached. Is that something we should expect of prophetic people?

This is a great discussion! I've been rereading it, for your input is almost classic. Thank you!

I think you make a really important point Clive. Prophecy encompasses both careful study and spontaneity. 1 Peter 1 talks about prophets searching "intently and with the greatest care" and 2 Peter 1 talks about prophets as men speaking as they were "carried along by the Holy Spirit". Luke's gospel is clearly inspired, but he tells us he "carefully investigated everything".

Maybe spontaneous prophecy is like improvised music. To do it well requires years of disciplined study, and the freedom comes from submitting to training and correction. But all the observer sees is the freedom. I think prophecy can be spontaneous, but it is likely to be the fruit of hours spent in meditation and study

Often the thoughts that pop into our heads may be inspired, but they would usaully benefit from futher thought and prayer before we say anything. The tendency to only see spontaneous prophecy as authentic is not helpful

I think prophecy is important enough to be worth training (or maybe apprenticing) people to do well.............whether we sing it or say (or dance it or paint it)

I'll let you have that one! But...the spontaneous songs are in the minority, aren't they? It does seem that in some charismatic churches, prophecy is usually regarded as being authentic if it's a totally spontaneous utterance with no thought behind it. Surely that's just one aspect of prophecy - and perhaps not a very reliable kind? We consider the entire Bible to be a prophetic statement - and that took thousands of years to compile. I think our view of the prophetic may have been a very narrow one. Perhaps to be truly prophetic takes a bit of hard work and study on the part of the prophet.

I'm enjoying keeping up with this forum. It's good to know that prophecy is as controversial a subject in the church as it ever was!

On the issue of sung prophecy it's worth noting that in the old and new testaments it is entirely normal for prophecy to be sung. Whether its David's songs that prophecy about Jesus, Isaiahs song about a vinyard, Haabukuks moving song "Lord i have heard of your fame.........", Mary's song in Luke 1 or the prophetic songs in Revelation, its clear that prophecy and song often go together.

Some, like Mary's and Zechariah's songs in Luke, appear to be spontaneous. Others, like the Psalms, are likely to be as carefully considered as any hymn. Both types can be inspired

From Chronicles 25 we get the idea that the musicians and singers were to work together in the prophetic ministry and maybe this isn't a bad model for us to work with. The presence of more mature people who can train others is a good way to promote ministies that are teachable and humble. This would also help avoid the "lone rangers" who give prophecy a bad name

Of course, none of this removes the need for prophecy to be tested but a sung prophecy is no less biblical than a spoken one

I have also witnessed this over the years. But now I start to wonder, is there something else going on here? Can we call this 'prophesying'? Perhaps this kind of spontaneous singing could come under the New Testament category of 'spiritual songs'.

At one level I am concerned about giving this kind of activity prominence in a church service. But at another level, I am drawn to the spontaneous, messy, home-grown feel about it. It reminds me of an Irish wedding I attended years ago, when anyone could get up and sing, because we were all happy for the couple and we just wanted to party.

There is something divinely democratic about it. We can all 'have a go'. That is so childlike, so Christlike. Maybe I appreciate that even more than the actual content of the singing.

Nice one.
God speaks through music when we are in worship. This happened on Sunday past. Occasionally people has commented after the service. There was just something about that time of just music. Often when 'lost in wonder' the musicallity of an interlude takes on a more.....heavenly feel.
Also prophetic song. My wife moves in spontanious song, and I have my self ocassionally. Yes its usually edifying if not worship orientated. This being the difference between Propfetic song and spontanious song. Prophesying for other reasons in song I'll need to think if I can recall anything I've witnessed personally.
But yeah music definatly releases the prophet, to prophesy with words, I've yet to see a prophet sing a prophecy. I'll check with my wife she has a better memory than me. Obviously it's scriptural as we have Zecharia, Mary both giving prophecy in song.

Just to throw a spanner in the works! In 1 Samuel 10:5 we read: After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, tambourines, flutes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying.

A clear link between music and the prophetic. Any thoughts as to how the playing of music, either in a church meeting, concert setting, can release the prophetic? Is the prophetic limited to words, or can God speak through the music?

The spirit of prophecy does not control the prophet. So we do have some flexibility in how we deliver what we believe God might be saying.

For instance, a very forthright, opinionated person, might present a prophecy one way. But a very gentle, pastoral person might express the same 'word' in a completely different manner. Both could be right, depending on the context.

Obviously, the prophecy we are talking about here is not in the same league as Scripture, which has been tried and tested over many centuries. Therefore, as you say, the written inspired text is paramount.

But we should see church history and tradition as a measuring stick as well, hopefully being complementary rather than equal to Scripture. Is there a precedent for what we are saying in church history, for instance? We should be asking those kinds of questions.

If someone is promoting a message with no backing from either Scripture or church history, then perhaps we need to invite them outside for a good theological 'hiding'.

Might I also add, Clive, that it seems to me there is something oddly prophetic about what, and how, you yourself share in these forums. Our ears are twitching like an eager horse. (Or should I say, as it is being read, that our eyes are bobbing about like a lizard?)

You're right, Clive. My comment was tongue-in-cheak. Yet there is a point underlying it, as well. I think we can, and should, edify one another and, as you say, avoid condemnation. As we know, Jesus didn't come for that.

I suppose that everything that is done by people who are born of spirit bears the characteristics of God; and that, I suppose, makes it all kind of prophetic.

At the same time, however, because prophecy is about reflecting or expressing God's heart on anything, I don't think that we can't be choosy about what it is that He wants to express, whether gentle or severe, encouraging or prognostic, predictive or revelatory, etcetera. It's a good thing that folks in scripture weren't choosy about what they prophesied.

Is scripture-like prophecy contemporary? I would say it's timeless. But that doesn't excuse one's being arrogant or hateful while expressing what one believes God is expressing. As it has been suggested, the simple ACTIONs of compassion, encouragement, even discipline, etcetera, in themselves express God's heart for the moment. And from those actions we can learn about His character, as well.

This might be to say that prophecy is as much, if not more, about what we do as it is about what we say.

I thought this forum was about prophecy – so I was offering purpose to the act of prophesying. If prophecy carries a condemning kind of air about it, I think one should think twice about it. That was the point of my comment.

O come on...just edify!

Nicely summed up. We prophesy to edify.

To summarize, (my daughter and grandson came in with breakfast from McDonalds, and I'm not allowed to dawdle at the computer!) prophecy to edify, but no man behind the curtain manipulation of others, and no prima donna expectations of a response and applause.

I find myself strongly siding with Clive on this! When it comes to worship and praise, God, like any lover, does not want to put words in our mouth about our love for Him or for others. Please understand that God has worked so powerfully in my life that when I share these with my prophetic friends they blanch and tremble. But when it comes to love and worship and praise, I side with my common sense, freewill friends, for God wants us to love Him and others without manipulation, even though He easily could! The Holy Spirit does everything with permission to those He loves!

We need to get back to good old-fashioned common sense. God has blessed us with brains, so they should not go unused. When someone comes along and says, 'God has given me this word for you', we should invite them to rephrase that as, 'I believe God may have given me this word for you, so please put it to the test'. That word may have come straight from heaven. Or it may indicate too many cheese and onion sandwiches on the part of the 'prophet'. That's OK, so long as that is discerned and pointed out. We should have the freedom to prophesy, and the freedom to accept or reject the prophecy.

The trouble with the phrase, "God gave me this song," is as Clive has said that it rather puts it up on a pedestal. Although I have written several thousand songs, (not boasting, most of them are very bland and I am long in the tooth,) only one came to me instantly. It was under special circumstances where there was an evil presence in the room and the passage, "Up Lord and may your enemies be scattered before you. etc." came to mind complete with tune.

If I were to make the claim that God gave me every song then I would have to acknowledge how much better his songwriting has become over the years, especially after I got my Dip. Mus.!

Still, in the wider sense, God is the author of all.

So now that we have focused our thoughts through reference to music, how does this impact on our original question concerning Words from the Lord?

Yes, I see where you're coming from (I think). The same principle can be applied to all of God's creation.

I see the mark of God in the Manic Street Preachers, The Clash and Bob Dylan. All people are made in his image, so their songs may reflect his glory. But I can't say that God has 'given' particular people specific songs. Did God give Keith Richards 'Satisfaction'? It's not really for me to say.

Of course, God has put a new song in our mouths, but surely this is referring to the theme of our lives, the work of salvation and forgiveness, being expressed through us? I'm not so sure that it means God has put a specific set of music and lyrics in our mouths. We are not robots. He lights the blue touch paper and stands back to see what happens. I don't think he manipulates our thought processes.

And if a song is bad, it might be beyond tweaking. It might need to be thrown out.

Are the thoughts, feelings and reflections not a response to the gift of salvation?

Matt Redman wrote about the overflow of the forgiven soul.
Flowing from a greatful saved soul.

Again Job is speaking of the giver of the song, and King David says He(GOD) has put a new song in my mouth. He goes on to say that it is a hymn of Praise to God. So Given by God for God through the overflow of our forgiven soul.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Even the sparrows song is a delight to the Almighty. Not only the Knightingales.

If a song is bad, yet from a saved heart perhaps it's just needing that tweaking I mentioned previously.

Then there is the whole issue of Common Grace.........

Surely the song is a result of one or more people putting notes together with a set of lyrics? After that, it is up to the audience or congregation to decide how 'inspired' it was. No one actually 'gives' the song. It's made up, from a person's thoughts, feelings and reflections. As I said before, it is hard to describe exactly the process of divine inspiration in these matters. It's not an exact science. Also, which songs would be 'given' by God and which aren't? Are all the badly written tunes 'given' by him as well? I wouldn't be brave enough to credit those to the Almighty. He might not be pleased.

Okay lets see if God didn't give the song who did?

Oh I see. I think we might be talking about different things here. It looks like you are referring to gifts in terms of abilities and skills – for instance the ability to write a wee song.

But when people say, 'God gave me this song', I take that as a cue to run and hide. It generally means they think God has actually 'given' them that specific song, rather than just the general ability to write the odd tune.

So they are somehow 'anointed' and therefore greater than the rest, because they have the bat-phone link, and get direct calls from heaven. I think that is an unhealthy mindset. Surely if a song is 'given' by God, it would be a smash hit every time? But those songs tend not to be such chart monsters.

No offence taken Clive we're just battin' it out:-)

Personally though I give God all the Glory for his giftings, without which there would be no response in, 'song',(case in question). or Dinner on the table, or flowers in the garden,etc.
Yes we are fearfully and wonderfully made and if we try hard enough we can get the hang of most things what with courses on every subject under the sun available.

Whether we are appointed and annointed in that gift or not is I think where we seem to differ.

I'm thinking of the old chorus, 'Jesus put this song into my heart', by Graham Kendrick.

The giver of life is surley also the giver of song.

David says in Psalm 40v3, 'He has put a new song in my mouth a hymn of praise to God'. Job says of God in chapter 35v 10 '...who gives songs in the night'.
Yes some songs that are given need reworking for congregational use but, I'm on David and Jobs side:-)

Sorry Clive.

Sorry - it wasn't a personal attack! I only wake up when the coffee's ready, anyway. :-)

I get concerned when I hear such phrases as 'God gave me this song' or 'I felt led'. We need to be so careful with the way we express such mysterious processes as divine inspiration. It is safest to say, 'I had this idea...' or even 'I believe God may have had a hand in this, but let me know what you think'. Even that is pushing it a little.

Yes, we can all respond to God's saving grace by writing a song. That doesn't mean the same as 'God gave it to me'. That phrase is so loaded, it is best kept in a metal box next to other dangerous materials - locked up and out of harm's way.

Either we all have a 'bat-phone' directly linked to God, or nobody does.

All I'm saying is who's responsible for the writer feeling the way he does? Who did the saving and who is responding and why.
I suppose it's a relative view point.
I'm definatly awake...
Anyway I though we were discussing prophecy. Or are we now onto prophetic song?

OK, if God does hand out songs to one or two blessed individuals here and there, surely the crucial test would be down to the audience or congregation? They decide whether it's God-given or not. That is biblical. In other words, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Surely it shouldn't be down to the composer to go around saying, 'God gave me this song'? Let's wake up here!

"The power of life and death is in the tongue"
What if we all,(myself included here), exercised our faith, of which we all have the same measure, to it's full potential.
Perhaps all who prophesy,(and I believe that can be all of us), and all who hear, would see a greater return form Gods spoken prophetic word.
All measured up against scripture as Anthony mentioned previosly of course.

Oh and what if God did give the song? After all thanks giving stems from the "Thankfull" and "Saved", Thankfull and Saved by God...

I think the song writer is giving God his due place. Though Yes the overflow of Words, do often need crafting if congregational participance in expected.

Just some thoughts.......

I understand what you are saying. But could we take a little care with our phrasing?

'I had this idea' is good. It's safe and neutral. It gives friends and colleagues a chance to share their input.

'I felt led to write this' is going into boggy territory. There is too much 'felt led' poisoning among Christians. We can say we were 'felt led' to do anything, and few people would question it.

Perhaps the greatest risk is to say, 'God gave me this song'. The composer – or 'channeller' – is blocking off all attempts to analyse their work because 'God gave it'. It puts the work beyond criticism.

Forgive me if I sound like I'm being picky. I'm just asking for some honesty and normality among us. So, if I hear a song in a dream and write it down – like Paul McCartney did with 'Yesterday' - then I should just say that. But I mustn't claim God put it there. He may or may not have put the song in my dream. Who could ever say? If I feel particularly inspired after my personal prayer time, and write a song in response to that, then I should just say it like it is.

I should not credit God with my unfinished, intuitive, stream-of-consciousness compositions. What if the prophetic bit comes when I ask for fresh input from close friends and colleagues?

"Maybe prophecy is just a fancy way of qualifying something simple."

This could apply right across the board. Just how a prompting from God is received may well depend on our church tradition. In terms of songwriting the statements:
1 I had this idea.
2 I felt led to write this.
3 God gave me this song.
may all describe the same event seen through the expectations of denominational eyes.

Sounds like you've hit it on the head there.

I think what we call "prophecy" is just expressing what is on God's heart. Whether it's the variety of ways used in the scriptures to convey it, or the sum-total of the scriptures themselves, it's all about God's heart being expressed in one way or another.

I just got off the phone with friends who have moved to south-France and who are in desparate need of direction. They sought God's heart for them by just talking over the issues they were facing. And that kind of love for one another, I think, is actually a prophetic act. And that may have been enough in God's eyes, except that I'm sure He nudged me with three words: Let France help!

I would never be thought of as a "pastor". None-the-less God quite naturally seems to use us all to express His pastoral nurture with each other. I suppose we could call that God's kind of caring community. Maybe prophecy is just a fancy way of qualifying something simple.

I agree with Clive. What's already written for us in the word is far more to be trusted than what a total stranger may say in a fleeting moment.

For me, prophecy is a bonus that is sent to encourage, strengthen resolve and sharpen our focus. It should always be weighed and must never cut across God given biblical truth. It's given to confirm what we already know - not send us into some new pathway that we never imagined before.

The 'Prophet ' will move on, and you may be left behind trying to work out or even fix the impact of his brief encounter. These messages should always be received with care and due attention.

Surely a good pastor who knows you and prays for you, would be more trustworthy when it comes to your well being and choices in life.

Sue

The clearest example of the role of prophecy is found in Acts. A man had four daughters who were prophets. One of the daughters bound the feet of Paul, who was on his way to Rome. She then said that as she had bound Paul's feet, so they would bind Paul in Rome, and then wept and begged Paul not to go. He went anyway, knowing she was right on what she saw. She saw the future correctly, but she missed entirely the purpose and plan of God. Paul was denying himself and taking up his cross!

Agreed. Prophecy is an intuitive engagement with God. It can hit you in the gut, before it emerges through the intellect. When it is expressed as a verbal statement – or in drama or music – then it must become a shared experience among trusted friends.

'Does this sound like God?' is a question we must ask in response to any prophecy. Throw it around. Shake it and stir it. When prophecy has gone through the filter of a warm, loving community, it is working at its best. People who care about you, will warn you before you respond to a radical prophecy about moving jobs or home, for instance.

And let's not forget to get on with the stuff that's written down, before responding to all the stuff that's spoken out. There is plenty to get on with from Scripture, before worrying about am I responding correctly to this or that message delivered by a complete stranger at some high-powered conference or whatever.

A high view of Scripture will protect us from the fruitcakes of Christendom.

we're touching some vital issues here..........it's good stuff. I guess my take would be that prophecy is not just prediction. Usually it demands a response. The classic example is when Jonah prophecies doom for Nineveh, but when the people of Nineveh repent God changes his mind. If we have a very mechanistic view of prophecy then this gives us a problem. But If we see prophecy as part of the two-way dialogue between a living god and the people he created then it makes sense. Another example is God promising to take the Israelites from Egypt into the promised land. The reason that most of the exodus generation didn't make it was to do with thier response to God (or lack of it!).

A critical part of this response is the pondering and reflection that Clive mentioned, but there may be other reponses required like the prophesy in Acts which predicts famine - where the reponse needed was to make a collection for the people who would be affected by it.

But I need to be cautious. Trying to be too definitive is for academics. I love the way God can't be systematised and categorised!

Didn't Shakespeare warn us against trying to fulfil prophecies in our own strength, in his play 'Macbeth'? Just like a good porridge, I think prophecy should be left well alone for a wee while – ponder it, think about it, reflect on it, chat about it with trusted friends, stir it gently.

Assuming that the word we have been given is a word from the Lord, how active should we be in seeking its fulfilment? Should we pray into it? Should we try to make it happen right away or simply carry on as normal and see what turns up?

Just one word more, if I may. One thing I had to do very early in my ministry was to let God be God, and let Him direct the lives of others. I gave my friend Rick a cup once when he was my boss that said, "Me boss, you not!" I needed that cup from God that said, "I'm God, you're not!"

If I may dabble my toe into a very loaded subject. Most of what I used to think of as prophecy in the truly visionary sense was really, I believe, discernment. I have coined a phrase that helps me to understand it better, for God has given this gift to me from time to time. It makes more sense to call it "shepherd's sight" or an ability to see slightly further than normal, beyond the ordinary limits of time and space. Mothers have a similar gift when they "see" behind them. I hesitate to call this the full blown gift of prophecy, because, if I understand it correctly, the prophet literally lives in both worlds at the same time. It is, I believe, a rare gift, but shepherd's sight is much more common, and extremely useful if you are responsible for the care of others. When they are just under the surface, we call them hunches. They are only guides, and never to be confused with truth, which is to be held on to dearly. I hope this may help.

Yes, agreed. If we live a prophetic lifestyle, expressing the goodness and endurance of God, then that undergirds any vocal prophecy we might want to share – the dessert topping, if you like. But perhaps, as you are saying, Andrew (great surname, by the way!), we should let our words be few. Otherwise, I fear we might be in danger of losing our meaning as a Christian community.

Interesting observation about David's prophecies being part of his songs. Of course, some of those prophecies carried greater meaning much later on in history. That's another indication that we may never really know what kind of impact our work is having. Maybe we are not meant to know, all of the time. For now, perhaps we should enjoy being part of the mystery of God. That's pretty cool in itself.

Interesting and illuminating debate.......and one i feel strongly about. When I look at the great prophets in scripture such as Moses, I'm always struck by the fact that prophecy was something they lived as well as spoke. Moses didn't only hear from God about exodus, he lived it. Jesus ( a prophet mighty in word and deed) didn't only speak the good news, he became it. The first chap in scripture to be called a prophet, Abraham, didn't seem to do any "thus says the Lord"ing at all, but he lived out the promise of God and even saw it fulfilled in Jesus. David's prophecies were part of his songs, and i sometimes wonder if he even fully understood what he was singing about.

Maybe this merging of the message and the life is something to do with the difference between someone who prophecies and a prophet.

In contrast to the rich and varied prophetic tradition in scripture, it seems sad that in our times we often only recognise prophecy when it comes in formulaic speech. (In fact, i suspect that much of what we think of as prophecy in a meeting or conference setting is more like the word of knowledge, but that's anothe debate! )

Sometimes I think we have so many words, and i wonder if the example of prophetic lives will speak more deeply to the church and the world. The prophets i give most attention to are those who live out the message

I was leading worship at a conference once, when someone stood up and gave a public prophetic word for me. "Thus says the Lord. I hate it when you sing so loud!"

Needless to say, this was one I disregarded. But someone without a strong network of friends or a little insecure in their gift, could so easily be crushed by such a public word. Especially when prefaced with the non-negotiable - "Thus says the Lord"

That is an interesting point. The South African revivalist preacher Rodney Howard-Browne once said, 'Prophecy is confirmation, not information'. I have always tried to remember that bit of insightful advice from someone who has had to navigate his own way through some of the most extreme wings of the charismatic church.

I have encouraged young Christians to always, always, question prophetic words – especially if they come from a well-meaning stranger at some conference or other. Give the prophecy a good kicking (but not the prophet – at least not straight away!) and see if it stands up to scrutiny, if it links in with whatever God is already saying to you in your life.

Ask God, ask your friends, 'Does this sound right to you?' If we are seeking to follow Jesus and serving God in our everyday lives, then more often than not, our 'sanctified common sense' will warn us if the prophet is a fruitcake or not – and whether we should consider their words or chuck them out.

Does it sound like God? If not, you know what to do with it.

I get worried when people are told to get rid of music, CDs, books etc. under the guise of a 'prophetic word'. I have lost count of the number of times people have told me they had an experience like that. And that many years later they realised it was not God but a controlling leader making demands.

Another one is people being told to lay their ministry/gifting/talent at 'the foot of the cross'.

I think the only thing that gets laid at the foot of the cross is our sin.

My own observation applied to the charismatic evangelical worship movement as a whole – we think we've 'got it'. I've been there myself. At one time it felt like we were part of this special group of people who had discovered 'something'.

But when you step back and look at the wider family of the Church, we are just branch – just one part of a greater happening that was God's idea in the first place. How many charismatic evangelicals have listened to the work of people like Liam Lawton, for instance? He is a key songwriter in the Catholic community, and composes extremely uplifting liturgical music.

God, help us to be prophetic – but not as we know it.

This issue of control is one that also concerns me. My son was told by his pastor to clear the decks of any musical projects except the ones that come from his church. He has complied but it does make me feel a little uneasy about the fellowship he is in.

I am picking up a potential danger here. One who exercises a prophetic gift over an indiviudal or church, needs to be on guard against a spirit of control......

Completely. Some of us also tend to think our frame of reference is the only one, or the right one. We adopt cultic tendencies we have criticised other groups for having. As you are saying, we then issue prophecies that sustain that small sphere of influence. I wonder now if that is a healthy thing to do.

Some questions in response to your last comment Clive. I wonder if a problem with God's 'now prophetic word' is that we think there is one current word for the whole world. A one size fits all 'cookie cutter' approach to prophecy.

Do those of us privileged to live in the relative peace and comfort of the First world, think we have a better grasp of what God might be saying to His creation than others?

Is there still a spiritual colonialism that lingers?

Do we feel that we are closer to the truth than those in less developed nations?

Shouldn't we be pursuing what is on God's heart for our street/village/town, rather than looking for a blanket edict for the whole of creation?

Yes, let's dig into God's Word together – and let's hear from brothers and sisters of other Christian traditions, so we can get the bigger story of what God is saying to the world.

Binary, or fixated - which one am I? :-)

The following thoughts may be off-topic, but I’d really like to share them. The reason I’m concerned about what I and others say in these forums is because of the vast audience that can be reached by this amazing technology. We’ve been given an incredible opportunity, and responsibility, to share the good news of Jesus Christ – not only through citing and studying key passages of God’s Word, but also through the ideas we express and the manner in which we express them.

Being only human, it’s natural for us to misunderstand each other in what is shared in the exchanges that take place, not to mention impossible for us to correctly judge the motives behind the statements we read. Clive, if I’ve offended you, or anyone else, in something I’ve said, please forgive me. It’s also a given that there will be disagreements and differences of opinion on how to engage in these forums. Should they be a place to chat in order to get to know each other? Should they be a place to dig into God’s Word together, allowing for the conviction and encouragement He brings? Should they be both? And since most of us will not meet in face to face fellowship this side of eternity, it’s difficult for us to form an accurate view of each other. Hey, that’s difficult enough when we can meet face to face on a regular basis!

For what it’s worth, I have not rushed to judgment on anyone’s character based on the discussions we’re having in these forums. I try to recognize that each one of us is precious in God’s sight, and nothing we can say or do will ever change that. I come to this conclusion based on what I read in the Bible – from the very first verse in Genesis to the very last in Revelation. None of this is about religion! This is all about God’s merciful plan of salvation, for broken and repentant sinners, through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only way for anyone to be delivered from God’s righteous judgment against our sin and His just condemnation of us to death – eternal separation from Him, our Creator. The cross of Christ and the empty tomb are the primary demonstrations of these facts; we know very little of the meaning of any of this apart from God’s Word and the work of the Holy Spirit.

It’s not that I don’t want to chat to get to know you better, Clive! You and I, and all our brothers and sisters in the Lord, have all of eternity to get to know each other. I’m concerned that the time we don’t spend here and now actively engaged in God’s will for us, which is to make disciples of all nations, and our sanctification, will prove to be time foolishly spent (cf. Jesus’ parables in Matthew 25). What’s the span of one lifetime compared to eternity? We’ve been given clear commandments to obey – to lovingly reach out to the world with the good news of God’s love and mercy towards us in the risen Lord Jesus. “Heavenly Father, enable us to do your will, not ours. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen!”

I think it's the binary thinking that's quite challenging in these kind of exchanges - looking at life as either spiritual or 'worldly' (which is a Greek, not a Hebrew approach).

I see human friendships as an instrument of healing in themselves, before sticking any religious label on them - or calling the pastor in. Spending time with one another, preferring one another, not looking at the clock and just appreciating people, is heavenly - and part of our worship.

I never said anything depended on the presence or absence of alcohol - you were saying that - and please don't infer that anyone has an alcohol addiction. I was talking about 'going out for a drink' - whether tea, coffee, beer, water, fruit juice, milk or whatever. It's not me who has the fixation!

Basically, just be mates. That's prophetic - in a culture of alienation and isolation.

Uh-oh! I hope I haven’t done your head in! Just in case I have, I’ll “give it a rest” for a while. You’ve been more gracious than I have; thanks for your patience with me.

Whatever you say, mate!

Thanks for the Erklärung, Clive. I need another one, if you don’t mind.

You mention pastoral help for folks who struggle with addictions. By this do you mean pastors should be the ones people primarily go to for help to overcome their weaknesses? Or do you mean more generally those who are stronger by virtue of direct, painful experience with, and victory over addictions - through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit?

If the former is meant, we could be setting up quite a mess for ourselves, where church members selfishly indulge themselves in worldly behavior, causing their weaker brothers and sisters to stumble. As a result, pastors would be pre-occupied with the overwhelming duties of tending to the emotional/spiritual/physical emergencies that naturally follow destructive behavior. (Keep in mind that I’m maintaining, as you are, a distinction between warm intimate fellowship and indulgence. Fellowship should not depend on the presence or absence of alcohol, but on the willful exercise of brotherly love.)

If the latter is meant, then we are being more like responsible members of the body of Christ, loving others to the point of denying our own carnal desires for the benefit of others.

“…But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak…” 1Corinthians, chapter 8.

Prophecy – isn’t a priest by definition one who approaches God on man’s behalf, and a prophet one who speaks to man on God’s behalf? (Check out 2Peter 1:20-21 and 2Timothy 3:16-17.) In light of those verses, perhaps we could consider all of scripture to be prophetic? To be certain, any supposed prophecy should be tested in light of Scripture.

In Europe, 'going out for a drink' does not mean 'let's go and get sloshed'. It means 'let's go out for a drink'. For me and my mates, it means one lad might have a beer, another might have a coke, and so on. There is no pressure to drink a particular beverage. Pubs used to be great social centres, but now many are closing down and it's a shame. There can be nothing finer than a group of friends, huddled round their glasses by a roaring log fire in a country ale house, letting the time go and just chatting and laughing the night away. Those who take drinking alcohol to extremes need pastoral help, of course, and that's a whole other issue. But that's not the social activity I was referring to. Hope that clarifies matters. But we were talking about prophecy, weren't we?

Clive, in your neighborhood is the goal to "tie on a buzz" implied in the phrase "Let's go out for a drink"? In some circles it is. Now easy does it, here; whether you struggle with alcohol addiction or not is between you and the Lord (and the loved ones in your life). One thing for certain, however, is that your occasional references to drinking (in all fairness, you've mentioned tea, as well as Guinness) could be a bit insensitive to your brothers and sisters in Christ who struggle with substance abuse.

Hey, could these comments be considered a contemporary prophecy? Remember, though all prophecies are meant to encourage, some are sweet, and some are bitter.

Yes, I have seen those happen, too. So I don't write off prophecy. In fact, the apostle Paul encouraged us all to do the stuff. Follow Jesus, do your best, and expect God to speak through you, not just in dramatic 'words', but also through the nuances of your everyday life. People cannot argue with a life that is different from the norm.

All sensible comments, most Words I have heard fall into this catagory of general encouragement. How about more specific prophecies with verifiable results?

It seems like we have to dress everything in this cloak of religiosity, so instead of slapping a friend on the back and saying, 'you're a mate!' or 'you're a good man', and herd them off for a drink, we wait - as you say, for the tinkling of the ivories at a meeting - and then we do a 'word', something like, 'Brother Jack, I just feel God is saying that you're a good man, and you're going to do good things'. So God is saying it - not even his mate! It does my head in.

If anyone out there is prone to this sort of behaviour, stop doing it. Take your mate out for a drink, for goodness sake, and put your money where your mouth is!

Clive I concur. I think we have got locked into this public delivery of prophetic words and lost the place where God speaks as we sit down with friends and eat and drink together.

I think it is a symptom of our entertainment/consumer culture within church meetings, where we look to the anointed man or woman of God to speak into our lives. Does it carry more weight in a public setting, from a pastor, with keyboards playing softly?

I am not saying that we should not make room for this in our gatherings. There is simply a danger that we only have this happening in our 'meeting' environment and not in the fabric of everyday life also.

Let's open our hearts to hear God speak to us about the person sitting next to us on the subway or bus. Prophecy is for life not just meetings.....

Good question. Most prophecies that are shared in churches and conferences tend to be words of personal encouragement and affirmation. Those are still valid. But the question is, should we call them 'prophecy'? And why should we have to resort to sharing a prophecy, to affirm and encourage someone in the church?

I fear it may show up a lack of genuine human interaction among us. Let's encourage and affirm one another anyway - don't call it 'prophecy' – just do it. Pop in on each other for cups of tea, do errands, make each other laugh, ask how each other's families are, invite friends round for meals and don't watch the clock - be totally and genuinely human. After all, in a sense, that is what Christ saved us to be.

What are your experiences and opinions on modern prophecies? Are they valid? Do they come true? Are they, "Too hot to handle?"

I am not referring to biblical prophecies like the 2nd coming but to the sort of, "Word from the Lord," which often gets delivered during charismatic services or prayer meetings.

Fire away.