Worship is not about the song or the words its about a hunger desire to worship God with all you are. God is fed up with singing He wants us to capture His heat with are desire to enter the inner courts of Heaven and loose ourselves in worship to him.

Martin Roberts

its all a matter of the heart ,GOD ALWAYS READS OUR HEARTS TO SEE WHAT OUR MOTIVES ARE,man looks at the outward

Well said Joyce but why the 'however'. It seems as if we're on a guilt trip like we're fearful that God will catch us having a moment of self indulgence. I know I critiicised self indulgent worship but that's more about attitude. In Christ we can have our cake and eat it. When Paul blasted the Corinthians for debasing the love feast his solution was to eat at home, then you can come prepared and with the right attitude.

Abraham acted in obedience but also in ignorance because God never intended him to carry out what would have been a terrible crime but Isaac's willingness as a sacrifice set the scene for the worst crime in history centuries later. Because of this there is now no sacrifice necessary, we are free to worship without guilt or fear. We will have trials in life and be asked to lay down our lives but we can come to God in worship with a clear conscience.

This is an interesting debate. Mine is more on the 'maybe.' Playing good music is important in the sense that the bible does command musicians to 'play skillfully' (I suppose singers are included there).

However, I have to keep reminding myself the worship is about obedience and submission to God rather than how good the music is and how we feel.

When Abraham went to sacrifice his son he said he was going to worship.

I got up this morning to a worship CD (not mine) and it sounded good. This one song sounded really nice and I thought the hook was 'Lord search me out' and it reminded me of a psalm of David and I was thinking "yeah, that's what I want when I come to worship God". When I listened more carefully I could hear the words 'as I lay in your presence, touch me now'. What a disappointment - what a self indulgent way to worship God. The next song was 'You're so good to me'. Nuff said.

I've been reading the prophets and hearing God say "I hate your worship, you do what you please then you bring me blemished lambs." Who cares if current music trends shape our worship - its only music. What I hate is so called spirit led worship that is self-indulgent nonsense, where God is more like Santa Claus than El Shaddai.

What I'm looking for is 100% worship, 100% music, 100% passion, 100% me, 100% God. Don't they say that marriage shouldn't be 50:50 it should be 100:100? We're the bride and Jesus is our husband. God doesn't work in fractions. If I am fully committed to worshipping God, if I give what I love doing totally to God then I know that he will be pleased.

"'Why have we [worshipped]*', they say,'and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?'"

"Is not this the kind of [worship]* I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the chords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?".

*fast(ed)

The question as to current music trends "shaping our worship more" than the Holy Spirit, probably finds a 'yes' in its answer somewhere.
I would like to say 'no', but if I do it would mean that very few under 25 are interested or involved. The fact that modern music comes through is a fabulous thing that should be celebrated. Music of different styles draws people from different streams! How exciting is that?

I also reckon that it's safe to say that the Holy Spirit must like today's sounds, as He moves through them!
The problem begins when the music becomes the biggest thing. That should be saved for the secular scene, which is a great scene in it's own right.
For worship, and for God's pleasure His glory must come first and as we serve humbly and gladly the Holy Spirit helps us to give Him that!
Sue Owen

Paul says "those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God". Therefore if we do our own thing in worship we must become illegitimate? No, Paul is obviously saying that if you are a son (child) of God your normal inclination will be to be led by the spirit. We train our own children to live in a way that benefits them and others. They can then choose to be led by what they know to be beneficial or be led by the nose into what is harmful.

It seems to me that we look to Paul for wisdom in our church and in our worship. We want to be free, no longer tied to dry religion, rules and regulations. Paul says live righteously and honour others; otherwise enjoy the freedom you have in Christ. Our response is to chisel Paul's words in stone and prescribe what freedom is. You can lead a horse to water...

I think you're right - shouldn't every area of our lives be led by the Spirit? I lead a music team in a Pentecostal church. I love the heritage of the Pentecostal churches and the way that there is a history of being unafraid to take risks in our expression of meeting with God - a trait which is not exclusive to Pentecostalism I might add! However, I cringe, when i go to some gatherings, at the use of jargon and some of the things that are said which sound spiritual but which actually make very little sense. The most irritating, for me, is when people say that they want to be God sensitive rather than seeker sensitive - as if the two are mutually exclusive! We nedd to take our lead from the Spirit in our preparation and in the way that we are prepared to be flexible musically but I know lots of musicians who are not Christians who would do the same amount of prep and would have the same flexibility and would call it creativity rather than Spirit led. I know that the Holy Spirit is creative and didn't stop being creative on day 6 of creation, so He will always be showing us new ways of playing our instruments and expressing ourselves - Christian or not in my opinion. If being Spirit led means that I am open to worshipping God in a way that allows for creativity, then great - if it means that I need to leave longs sections of silence and see what happens - I'm not convinced that we have the meaning right.

Paul, I think you've got a good handle on this. I voted yes because so many of the newer songs I hear lack any substance and are better suited to listening than congregational singing but on reflection I would opted for a "don't know" if that was an option. Its the age old "they're not what they used to be" scenario.

It struck me this morning how obsessed we are about being spirit led. Now, when I hear that 2 word combination I immediately switch off and have to fight my cynicism. Paul was, if I may say, quite down to earth when he distinguished between the works of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit - what do they produce?

We can learn from quantum physics. You can stare at a cup as long as you like and it will still be the same cup with the same design in the same position. However when you study sub atomic particles they change their behaviour - that is a fact. You can't actually see them anyway, only the effect they have. The same must be true of the Holy Spirit - when you study the HS, the outcome changes.

That's not to say that we control the HS. On the contrary, the HS will simply not be studied. Anyone who says 'our worship is led by the Spirit' is simply talking nonsense - not because its not true but because its just foolish. Let's not navel gaze, concerning ourselves how much of that song was God and how much was Noel Richards.

I think that current musical styles and trends do shape our songwriting and musical worship - they should. As has been said earlier, our worship does not equal our singing but rather our singing is a small element of our worship. I think that our music is an expression of our worship to God, it is also an invitation to encourage people who are already Christians to engage with God but it is also an invitation for people who don't know God yet to see that God is not in a box of ancient religion, ritual and music but rather is relelvant to their lives today. The songs don't show that in isolation but they do help with the overall montage of seeing lives lives for Jesus. Remember, no songs that are written are done so in a musical vaccuum but rather in a contemporary culture.
However, I have said 'no' in the poll because I still think that God is involved in our worship from start to finish and so the cultural trend is only one element of the way that we meet with Him.

I should hope that current musical trends DO shape the style of our worship, otherwise we would all still be singing Gregorian Chants or something. We have to be culturally relevent and engage with musical styles that real people can access and identify with today. However, (and this is a BIG however) if our focus is on churning out whatever is "current / trendy / relevent" and not ultimately Holy Sprit driven, than all we have done become contrived and formulaic.

Hi Mark. I probably shouldn't have brought the 'be being filled' up because its a bit of a thing with me. While its useful for serious bible sholars to study Greek a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and to hear some preachers you'd think our modern translations are woefully inaccurate and we need their knowledge of Greek to keep us straight. But I have looked at most of the major translations and they all say 'be filled'. Its more about trust than understanding.

Having established that we both agree we should be continually filled, I'm happy to continue the debate. Experiencing the presence is very subjective. I've been in meetings where God's presence has been said to be powerful yet I have felt nothing. Was my spiritometer malfunctioning or was it a private party that I'd forgot to RSVP? I also look back to times where I thought I felt the presence of God but now believe I was just caught up in the moment.

Its interesting that we talk of God being in our meeting and of the Holy Spirit being present yet we also see worship in terms of entering into God's sanctuary. Do we meet with God or Does God meet with us? The more I think about this the more questions I have and the less answers. I know I react against emotionalism because I don't trust it but I continually go back to God's Word and wrestle with it there.

Hi choctaw_chris,
I don't see that as a fair comparison of language, as being happy is a state, whereas being filled implies an action by another - the difference between a one off filling of the Holy Spirit and a continual filling is important, the fact that you have settled on one understanding of it doesn't negate the other possibility, and your translation may be adequate for you but not for all. There are those who believe that the filling of the Holy Spirit is a one off event, so for those with this view the phrase, "Come Holy Spirit" could be largely meaningless unless addressed to those who have not yet been filled. We do have the Spirit already, but I see Him ebb and flow in meetings and other places. We've all experienced times of particular presence, haven't we? Or are we just making it up? Enjoying this discussion!

Hi Mark. If someone said to me 'be happy' I would naturally think they wanted me to be permanently happy. To be told 'be being happy' would not clarify the statement. It seems clear to me that Paul wants me to be in a state of fullness so my English translation is perfectly adequate, I don't need to know the Greek.

You could say that 'come Lord Jesus' is a cry of the heart, not that we want more of him but we yearn for the promise to be fulfilled. His kingdom is near yet still seems so far away. However, 'come Holy Spirit' seems strange to me as the Holy Spirit has already been given and is the deposit while we wait for the fulfillment of Jesus' coming. That Paul simply says 'be filled' presumes the jug is already on the table, I've just got to ensure my glass is the right way up and washed out.

Over and over again Paul prays not that we have more but that we realize what we've got.

Hi choctaw_chris,
I think there is a significant interpretational difference between "be filled" and "be being filled" - the first lends itself to a one off event whereas the second implies a continuous filling - present continuous? Hence, saying "Come Holy Spirit", it could be argued, makes a bit more sense in this context. However, "Come Lord Jesus" can only apply to His coming again since He is with us anyway?

Johnguitars, I think you have an interesting point and I have been thinking about that lately. Paul doesn't ask us to pray for the infilling of the Holy Spirit but says 'be filled' (some say it means literally 'be being filled' but that doesn't make a significant difference). From the context I read Paul saying that if you seek God, deny the flesh and don't be cluttered with rubbish or nonsense you will be filled with the Holy Spirit leaving room for nothing else.

Paul talks much about us being hid in Christ, being seated with him, having no confidence in the flesh. I feel he is telling us that it is in Christ, not in ourselves that there is power, authority and everything we would want to accompany our ministries. But I see no reason to believe that we are like batteries being powered up to do marvelous things - rather we are conduits being cleaned out so God can flow through us.

Now when you say they had the HS all the time but not at full power I think you might struggle to justify that statement. I can play my iPod at full volume though my headphones and deafen myself yet when I point the headphones outward all you hear is an irritating useless tiny noise. Full power means different things in different situations. You can destroy mighty structures with a light wind if you match the harmonics of the structure.

When Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit was there power blasting out of him or did people see a peace in him that defied explanation and blew their minds?

Jargon has a place. Words like sanctification, justification etc. would be inappropriate when talking to someone on the street and could be classed as jargon but are perfectly acceptable when both parties understand their meaning. What we are talking about are, as Noel says, phrases that trip off the tongue with little understanding or critique.

In Noel's defence, the song is a heart cry that longs for God's restoration and picks up on the words at the end of Revelation. The theme is God's kingdom coming in part and ultimately in fulness. So if we are asking Jesus to come into our meeting it is out of context and if we sing it with that intention it becomes meaningless.

Heather, I think your comment was tongue in cheek but many a true word...

In the NT it sometimes says that, So and so, "Full of the Holy Spirit," stood up and said......
Now post Pentecost they had the HS all the time but obviously not at full power otherwise it would not have been worth mentioning. So what made the difference, God or Man?

Heather, that thought did occur to me, when I wrote the last comment. It is good to ask the question.
I felt that the lyric was a God inspiration but has it become part of our jargon? Is it up there with some of the other well worn phrases that trip off the tongue?

Hey noel, maybe we could sing your song "come Lord Jesus" or is that jargon ;)

Heather, by measure for measure I was meaning we don't get from God in accordance with what we give. We stand before God empty handed and he does all the giving. There is a danger that even turning up can be thought of as our passport to blessing. God loves a contrite heart but even that is from the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You hear a lot of preaching on the theme 'you do this and God will do that' much of it taken from the Old Testament but there is often too much emphasis on the part we play. In the New Testament I hear more emphasis on us living a holy life and loving one another so that the world will know that we are Jesus' disciples.

You get the sense that God was far off in the OT and very near in the NT so we don't have to jump through the hoops that the OT Jews had to. Jesus has done it and we just have to accept it.

I would say that worship style is not important in connecting with God but, as you say, there is blessing in unity and fellowship which pleases God very much. So it seems to me (and I don't think I saw this before) that our corporate worship has more to do with connecting with each other than connecting with God. What we do for the least we do for Christ so any stumbling block we put in the way of our brothers and sisters worshipping God displeases him.

The music and style is just scaffolding because its merely our connection with God in relationship that counts. If its more than scaffolding it becomes an alter.

I have never given thought to the fact that a person who is deaf, might not be affected by musical manipulation or auto suggestion from the front of the meeting. Since music does affect our emotions, I wonder what someone who is deaf, will feel in a worship gathering. Will they sense the HS in the same way? Mmmm..

Choctaw - Chris, you raise a couple of important points. The basic question - why do we meet? What are we expecting in a meeting that we cannot experience in our homes? A tingle, a rush? I can get that from coffee.

If we have the Holy Spirit, why are we asking Him to come? There is a lot of meaningless jargon spouted. Where is the basis for this stuff? We are NT Christians, yet base what we do on the OT lifestyle.
Confused?

I love reading all your comments below.
It's great to see the passion that people have for worshipping the LORD. Be encouraged folks if that same passion is coming through in our praise and worship and our hearts are fully in submission to Him, what else can the Holy Spirit do but overflow. I still believe that musical trends do shape our worship but partly as we can worship in so many different ways, just ask a deaf person that can't hear the musical trend but thankfully the Holy Spirit can touch anyones life, regardless of their physical being. Our sins have been forgiven, the slate is clean, our names are in the lambs book of of Life and we already have the victory.

I wonder is there any musical trends in heaven, or will it not matter?

Seems to me this question is, in fact, two questions? Music trends certainly shape our musical worship style, but our worship isn't confined to the songs we play and sing, is it? I think in this discussion we need to differentiate between style and worship of Him within that style?

That's right, u can't measure God but He still requires a sacrifice of praise otherwise we could take His measure for granted! The bible clearly shows us in situations (Jehosaphat) that when a group of people lift up His praises, God moves! Shall I forget going to church because I can read the bible for myself? God wants a body of unity & fellowship because here that's where the blessings are! Doing it for yourself is ok but there's something about team work that God loves...

You could call it scaffolding if the songs/music become more important than actually meeting with God, like with any area in the church!

No, I'd say that was plain English. But there is no measure for measure - God gives and gives and gives.

What do we want from worship? A tingle? A rush? Some demonstration of power? A revelation? If my worship just made God smile I would worship like crazy, like David, for no other reason than God made me happy.

Maybe God will do something remarkable when we worship but if that's because we have the right attitude then its a reward for our righteousness. In the parable of the Pharisee and the sinner, the Pharisee thanked God for his righteousness - he believed it was a gift from God. He was rejected because he thought he had something that would earn him brownie points with God.

I think we should concentrate on how we, as worship leaders, can serve God's people. Whatever we do is just scaffolding - built up today, torn down tomorrow. Worship is its own reward.

God will do what He wants, when He wants but when He sees a genuine/sacrificial act of worship then I believe He will do more! The measure you give is the measure you get back!

Or is that biblical jargon?

Do we really need to usher in the Holy Spirit or invite him? If I am a believer I have the Holy Spirit. Whenever does the Holy Spirit need an invite anyway? I'm sorry but this sounds like worship jargon.

Thank you Andrew Duncan for what you said, I totally agree with you! Its everyone's responsibility as well as the leaders to have the right attitude in worship! Music is an aid and helps us to focus on God and meet with him individually! Some forms of music could be distracting instead of helping others so using some wisdom would be important!

I think there is the trap of some songs being used exactly as they are on CD's which could then be classed as a performance or using a song that isn't meant for a congregation! Creating an atmosphere in order for people to focus is the role of the worship leader/band, singing about Him and not ourselves (like many songs tend to do). When he is the first focus of our worship then I believe the spirit will move...music is a gift from God, how we use it is important!

If what you are doing is not ushering in the Holy Spirit it is not of God! If you chose yes, you need to stop what your doing and invite the Holy Spirit back into your worship time.

I wonder if the preacher would attribute music such a high place?

It depends on the attitude of the person. I'm going to play music in the trend that I tend to lean toward, not because the Holy Spirit tells me to, but because I may like that style or that sound. Can/Does the Holy Spirit lead me in the midst of the style that I am playing? Absolutely. Can I be caught up in the music and the trend that I'm longing to sound like? Absolutely. I don't think it has as much to do with trends as much as with the heart and character of the leader.

This is a great question, and one that I've battled with a great deal since becoming a worship leader. Just responding to the question without the influence of previous posts, I say yes, but sadly. I believe fully that the God of all creation, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is the ultimate inspiration. I believe that He can inspire the most unique creative sounds and songs, but we need to be tuned in to hear that "song of Heaven". After reading through the posts, I agree with the majority of what's already been written. Psychology certainly comes into play, and it's very easy to follow one particular form that always seems to work. I should know. We're one of the churches that follow the form 'cause it works and we have short services, one after another. I have learned, however, that the Holy Spirit can move, with clear evidence of His moving, in that 20 minute time span, and move differently in each of the 3 services. My prayer is always that He'll take our offering of worship, our submission to authority, and do something special with it.
I tend to look longingly back at the days where I was leading a small group of people in a living room or similar setting, and think that maybe that's a little closer to the way it should be. Far less pressure or temptation to get into a performance mentality. Yet at the same time, there is something so incredibly profound in gathering a large group of believers and worshipers into one place at one time with one goal...and experience the passion and power of unified praise!
Noel, it's funny you brought up the response time at the end of service; this past Sunday, I got tied up in our worship team Bible study during first service, and totally missed the end of service, where I always provide quiet background music with the intention of creating a worshipful atmosphere and masking distractions. Well, while I was horrified, apparently it was no big deal. Everyone responded in just the same way as always. Just thought that was humorous.
Also, in response to Noel's comment about leadership making a manipulative statement like "God is moving here today...", my thoughts are this...The people we are ministering to need to be reminded from time to time that God is alive, and is present in our worship service for all who will call upon His Name. We should, however, always use care in how we say things, because it is very easy to manipulate and use psychology to elicit a response, but part of our role is that of encourager and edifier.

I love these polls, by the way...! :-)

I think a better barometer would be 1 Cor 2:16 '...we have the mind of Christ'. We should learn to know what is of God and what isn't without being conceited thinking that we are the authority. Judging worship by any prescribed formula (even a biblical one) will narrow our vision.

I am mindful of times when God has whispered so quietly that I have hardly acknowledged, let alone felt, anything yet its had a profound effect on my life. Other times I have been pumped up and felt really blessed but its evapourated after the meeting.

The Holy Spirit and music trends are not mutually exclusive. The Holy Spirit does not dictate which chords we use, what effects the guitar player uses or how much kick should be in the mix. We are creations that have free will and our songs to God are going to be our own expressions. The Holy Spirit may give us lyrics or chord progressions at times and at other times, He just wants to hear what's on our heart. If a song writer or a worship leader or worship band member's heart is wholly surrendered to God, it doesn't matter how much their music is shaped by music trends so long as they are not straying from the Lord's direction. If in the end the offering to God is driven by a heart of worship and not by ego or selfish ambition then it is pleasing to God. Kind of a "man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart" sort of thing. We have to be careful not to judge the motives of those making the music and keep watch over our own heart and keep it in check. Just my thoughts. I guess the bottom line for me is that it isn't an "either/or" dichotomy.

I Like that comment - "our personal journey will shape our worship expression". I believe that also applies to the journey that your particular church is taking. The public gathering is shaped by what is happening in the life of the church. Is that shaping coming from the HS?

I responded maybe but it's really a yes. Many times our worship is shaped by our circumstances as well as outward trends. I know David's worship was shaped by his conditions or feelings. I think there's a transparency that can come with that fact. The musicality of our worship is going to be influenced by what's available to us in terms of instrumentation, technology, or other forces. That's not necessarily a negative when it comes to worship. Lyrically, we are more likely to be influenced from what God is saying to us, what we see going on around us in terms of life situations, etc. Our personal journey will shape our worship expression more than anything else. If a song is written from some sort of commercial acceptance platform, I question whether it is truly worship, but that's not my job to judge. It is God who can truly evaluate or judge what is or is not worship.

Better question: Why do we have to have a call for response at all?

Alan. Good point. Change the musical style next Sunday and see what happens. Start off with a slow song instead of a few upbeat praise songs and see what happens. People are conditioned to respond to our musical stimulus. You press the right buttons and get a corresponding reaction. Which is why, if the Holy Spirit failed to show up next Sunday, would most of us notice? We can get so good at our musical technique and song-list construction, that we can easily neglect the leading of the HS.
Another thing, is why do we have a keyboard player playing softly during the close of the preaching, as a call for response is made. Can the HS work without a keyboard playing tinkling in the background? Did Jesus ask Peter to play the keyboard while He healed the sick?

The high Yes response so far confirms my long held belief that music style is often the key driver to how we worship. In the 19th century the long established "band" of local instrumental players was superseded by the new "modern" idea of the single player organ. (Read Thomas Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree for an amusing take on this). Now we find that the worship band has become the norm. Try suggesting to your leadership team that this could be varied a bit and see what response you get.

I guess it is almost impossible to judge as to how active the Holy Spirit might be in our gatherings. Some would sense His presence while others might not. Some would have a deep encounter of God, while others might be untouched. Therefore, it is difficult for the leaders of such gatherings to make statements, such as "God is moving here today". because that may only be something they are sensing.
Such statements can be manipulative.

possibly, as most musicians are coloured by what they listen to.
although i never sang any 'new romantic' or 'synthesised electronica' choruses in the 80's! did i miss graham kendrik in his spandau ballet tights and floppy hair? LOL! (what a thought!)

Noel, psychology will always be a factor because we are human. Even when the Holy Spirit is at work it is a factor. I suppose it is up to worship leaders to examine their hearts and do the best they can. Whether the people react purely emotionally or are moved by the Spirit is hard to tell.

One thing I am learning is that the laws of cause and effect do not apply in prayer and worship. We give it to God and its up to Him what He does with it.

Don't forget when William Booth was around in the 1880's secular tunes of the period were used with inspired words.

http://www1.salvationarmy.org/heritage.nsf/0/42d53ced9ec1583080256954004bff3e?OpenDocument

I think this goes back to the performance vs worship debate. We hear new songs performed by our favourite worship band and think that will translate to worship times in the church. I know I'll be up for criticism for this but a couple of weeks ago not one of the songs in our Sunday service inspired me and I gave up wanting to sing.

I don't think the Holy Spirit makes up for poor worship songs (though God can obviously speak through anything). Rather when a song is inspired then the Holy Spirit can open it up for us just like when we read God's Word.

Sometimes a worship song is more suited to performance than congregational singing. Sometimes we need to be a little bit more critical.

If the sung worship in a meeting is not really "taking off", it can so easily be rescued by resorting to a well known, popular song that presses all the right buttons - emotionally, musically, lyrically etc. Is this simply using a song as a psychological tool? How often do we affect a psychological response from the congregation but call it the work of the Holy Spirit?

maybe the Holy Spirit shapes all music before it reaches the human ear.

Yes but more than the Holy Spirit? Current music has always shaped our worship to God. The bigger question is when creating worship songs is the writer in the spirit or working to formulas that will hopefully generate income.

Probably. I think it goes back to pleasing man more than pleasing God. Traditionalists were resistant to the Charismatic move (renewal) back in the 1970s...well, "traditionalists" will always be resistant to things like that. But true worship inspired by the Holy Spirit can take on many shapes & sizes, and we need to be sensitive to how It is moving as opposed to having everything organized down to the second and using the same style all the time.